have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
Charles russel revolted against a few standard christian doctrines that had been pretty well accepted by most churches. He didn't really promote a new sect, but by his departure from christianity, he set the climate among his followers for a new sect.
Nonsense. The Bible Students were were drawn fro all segments of Christendom, which is without doubt the vestige of the original apostasy form Christianity. / You Know
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
H.S.
Thank you for your answer to my question, I do admire your tenacity and your consistent attempts at defending your views however much I disagree with the basic premise of your theological inclinations.
Your welcome, and thank you.
Remember though, that there are real people behind the arguments. Jehovah may have instructed his worshipers under the Hebrew regime that his enemies be shown no compassion, but the Christian inclination is surely less defined.
Not really. Paul, for example, confirmed the generally agreed perception of that day regarding Cretains that they were "liars, injurious wild beasts, and unemployed gluttons," which is why he advised Titus to "keep on reproving them with severity." Likewise, Jesus commended the Ephesians because they hated the deeds of the sect of Nicolaus, which Jesus said he also hated. Paul said that he wished that the Judaisers would get themselves emasculated, and so on and so forth. So, the business about loving one's enemies doesn't mean that such are ones are not our enemies. But, If Jehovah's Witnesses are in fact Jehovah's Witnesses in the scriptural sense, and Jehovah's judgments are due to unfold in the way that I have more or less outlined, then that means that, far from being an enemy, I am performing a valuable service for those on this board who may want answers to their doubts and questions. As Paul said, he became weak to those who were weak with the objective of perhaps saving some. / You Know
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
Since we have a number of new posters, here are a few posts of mine, from the most recent to the oldest, that deal with some of these issues. / You Know
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=32945&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=32364&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28690&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28050&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21986&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=14347&site=3 http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=9950&site=3
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
Yours Chelbie
Well, you cleverly managed to dodge my accusation of setting yourself in the place of God and judge people. Very manly of you little brother Bobby! So typical of self righteous "anointed" people LOL.
I didn't know this was about You Know? But, if that's the way you want it, then okay. I can defend my views with the judgments of my God. For example, Titus 3:11 says that any man who "promotes a sect" is "self-condemned." If it is the case that any person who promotes a sect is self-condemned, how much more so does a person come under Jehovah's condemnation who promotes outright revolt? Furthermore, Paul said that we do indeed judge those on the inside of the organization. I can tell you then for a fact, then, that anyone who tears down the work of God will be destroyed themselves.
But, granted, that Jehovah's full judgments have not been revealed yet, so at this point we can only describe in vague detail how such judgments will yet unfold. That's why Paul wrote the Corinthians, telling them---"Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have praise come to him from God." It seems, though, that in your case, you are the one who has rushed to judgment prematurely. You have condemned all of Jehovah's Witnesses and have jumped to the absurd and faithless conclusion, yeah, the apostate's verdict, that Jehovah is not aware of what's happening and that He is somehow incapable and unwilling of handling this stuff.
When will you be a man and face up to the fact that YOU ARE NOT a witness to Jehovah but rather a witness of the Governing Body that you blindly support.
I have told you some of Jehovah's judicial decisions that will eventually be leveled against his people. That makes me one of Jehovah's Witnesses in a way that very few others are.
Jehovah is not backing the way the issues of the pedophiles and UN are handled.
I have never said that he was. On the contrary, check the archives, little sister, you will find that I have written a fair bit on those issues. / You Know
Edited by - You Know on 7 August 2002 20:58:35
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
Chelbie says:
You ARE NOT an apostate in the sense that YOU KNOW refers to apostates
An apostate, as I use the term, applies to any JW or XJW who imagines that Jehovah is not going to bring his people into judgment.
IT IS YOU KNOW Who needs the mercy of God. As well as people like him who knowingly continue to support an organization that has brought shame to God's name by its actions.
How true. And it stands to reason that only Jehovah's Witnesses can bring reproach on the holy name of Jehovah. That being the case, as the scriptures prescribe, those who are teachers and so-called leaders can expect to have a heavier judgment, even as Christ said in connection with his faithful slave at the 12 chapter of Luke. That in itself proves that Jehovah has an organization, the fact that his own judicial decree legally, scripturally, holds the leadership of the organization accountable. That being the case why should anyone leave the only organization that Jehovah specifically takes note of for the purpose of correcting and saving? The truth is that 99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are not pedophiles and have no knowledge of anyone who is. If those in a leadership capacity have sinned and knowingly shielded child molestors, for whatever misguided reason, then Christ will bring them to judgment. Although I admire Bowen's zeal and courage, standing out in front of Bethel with placards for a TV photo-op isn't going to solve the problem.
I'm going to teach you something you don't know---without my head covered--- mr. YOU "KNOW": I have NO agenda,
LOL That's okay little sister, you just go ahead and let me have it. This ain't the kingdom hall. Let me tell you, my wife is plenty steamed too. She has had a couple of family members abused back in the '80s which we dealt with and ran itnto all kinds of crap from the brothers. So, yeah, I get it from all sides.
I am sick and disgusted by all the lies of the WTS which you so blindly support.
Whoa, whoa, stop right there....How can you dare call me a "blind supporter" of the Wt? How many of Jehovah's Witnesses do you know who are willing of coming on a board like this and try and deal with the issues? I know what's going on and I have stated fairly clearly why I remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses. If anything I could call you a blind supporter of the apostate movement, but I won't because I know that you have merely been stumbled.
I have been stumbled or however the Bible clearly explains it. I will never go back to affiliating myself with the WTS because there is no holy spirit there.
Hmmm. And you know this for a fact? Could it not rather be the case that youy have become insensitive to the presence of the holy spirit? Wouldn't that explain why you have allowed yourself to become stumbled? I certainly see the evidence of the holy spirit on the lives of many individuals throughout the congregations.
Yes, you have that much right, the Watchtower and anyone who defends their wicked policies and "image is more important than children" agenda WILL BE LAID LOW.
Being laid low doesn't mean that we are destroyed. Paul wrote and said that we are '"Thrown down but not destroyed."
AGAIN, this is what I've always believed, WE are each accountable to God, regardless of which organization we are associated with.
Then you were never really one of Jehovah's Witnesses to begin with. That pretty much explains things to me.
I could sign up with the UN tomorrow and use the excuse that I only need to do so to get access to their library, God will not destroy me.
Are you sure about that? I think Jehovah is going to rip those Bozos apart who steered the Watchtower into that mess. Do you want me to go over some specific prophecies that touch on that?
Further, since Satan is father of the lie and if by YOUR OWN admission "what we have taught about the future appears to be all wrong" then I choose not to support the WTS lies.
That's your choice. But, be advised that you don't know some basic facts about how Jehovah operates. Namely, that "God allows an operation of error to go forth" among his people to weed out those who don't absolutely love the truth. So, apparently you have found the error that you were looking for. We wish you the best.
/ You Know
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
Hillary's Step
Your answers, both here and in the past, show very clearly where you think the WTS might be in five years time YK, but let me ask, where do you think you will be?
If I am still alive then and counted worthy I would expect to be alongside the brothers of Christ who will at some point be in various stages of incarceration, nakedness, homelessness, and starvation, and otherwise humilated. / You Know
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
SUNSHINE 2
If these "apostates" didn't make this much of publicity, do you think anyone would pay attention to the molestation policy which I didn't know until I saw Dateline.
My point was that the Dateline expose is not going to prevent men from to evil things to children. But, it seems to me that heightened awareness about the issue is a good thing. The best way to deal with the two witness issue is to just call the cops and let them sort it out. I think the friends will be much less hesitant to do that now with all this mess out in the open.
Icannot honestly say you are wrong or right because I'm a mere human being who cannot forsee the future. I just hate to see the people being misled, pressured and condamned by the JWs just because they (people like Bill and others) pointed out their (the JWs') dirty laundry. There might be more victims within the organization who might be too young to act alone. Unless the WTS gets punished by the court of law severly, I don't think anyone would pay attention to those hidden victims.
The best court of law though is Jehovah's. He can get to the heart of the problem. He can destroy the abusers and set things right with the victims. Anything short of that is just bandaid stuff.
I was so upset when I read the JW Zone thread. I also read their thread on the Canadian girl who needed blood tranfusion. What they said about her father made me so angry. I guess it was his sin for loving his daughter too much.
These are life and death dramas that can whip up our passions and indignation. But, like I said, they are a mere sideshow to the greater issues and you shouldn't allow them to sidetrack you. Remember the proverb that says that "mere oppression can make a wise one act crazy"?
Sigh......I guess I'm really an apostate. May God have mercy on me.
Yes, it is possible. Remember the account about David's sin with Bathsheba? God's punishment for David was that Jehovah was going to allow his family to go berserk. Remeber Absalom even took over the throne from his father and David and his entourage were forced to live as fugitives. There was this guy Shemei who was walking along beside David and his family as they fled Jerusalem and he was calling down evil on David and throwing rocks at him. Joab wanted to take his head off but David restrained him and said that it was part of Jehovah's punishment. Later though when David was restored to the throne Shimei fell at David's feet and begged for forgiveness, which David granted, with one stipulation. The point is, that when Jehovah punishes his anointed ones for their sins then it may be possible for ones like yourself to be forgiven if you are so inclined to ask. I think as long as you don't go completely over the edge like a lot of apostates have done that you may really appreciate how Jehovah deals with this mess and sets things straight. / You Know
Edited by - You Know on 7 August 2002 15:58:40
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
First Random Task asks
That being said, I was wondering if you felt that this "lawlessness" within the organization has only been a recent epidemic or is it as old as the organization itself?
I think the world is generally becoming more and more corrupt and that a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses have allowed themselves to become hypocritical and corrupt.
Also, if you took away the society from Witnesses, where would their faith come from? SInce the society teaches that you can only have faith by being constantly involved with the organization then how could a witness have faith when there is no organization telling them what to believe?
That's the BIG question. For one thing Jehovah's organization consists only of those who are in a covenant with Jehovah by being anointed. So, that sort of leaves the printing company aspect of it on the outside of things. Sure the anointed have used the Watchtower to get their message out and it has served as a sort of rallying point, but we shouldn't make the mistake of imagining that that automatically means that the Watchtower Society will be there until the end. There's no question about it that the Watchtower has become its own worst enemy in that it has asserted itself into the lives of Jehovah's Witnesses at the expense of Jehovah himself. And that's why it seems that the appropriate way for God to settle that issue and set things right is to make us go it alone. Not only would it humble those who imagine that they are running God's household, but it would also shake out all of the Society men and leave merely a remnant who truly love God. I believe that's what all the prophets are foretelling.
Wouldn't they become like the many apostates who were disfellowshipped by the organization for believing that their faith is between them and God and not through an earthly organization?
The paradox is that Jehovah does have a spiritual organization, and he is, and will yet use it. Israel was Jehovah's organization despite the fact that many of its kings and priests were corrupt. Jehovah just needed to get rid of the dead wood and correct and refine his loyal ones. And that is of course what God did on a few occasions, and it is what he will do again. Just because God has some issues with his people doesn't mean that apostates are right. God is basically going to punish everybody, but he will only show mercy to a relative few who repent.
/ You Know
have you read the jw zone thread on bill bowen?.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=33978&site=3.
i would like to hear your opinion.
What I have come to appreciate from my study of how the Anglo-American political system of things is run, is that in the process of political debate the attempt is always made to control the agenda by focusing the debate to two phony alternatives, and in so doing more plausable solutions are forced outside the realm of acceptable thought. That's the way I see this issue shaping up. It's not Bill Bowen verses the Watchtower. The question of fatih presented to Jehovah's Witnesses should not be framed in terms of pro-Watchtower or Anti-Watchtower.
The way I see it both sides are wrong. Not that I am unsympathetic to the Silentlambs movement, the victims of abuse that is, aside from the fact that as I have mentioned previously, the Silentlambs are being exploited by apostates to further their ends, but it seems to me that there is not a whole lot that can be done. Like I have said before, tinkering with Watchtower policies, or calling the cops, or whatever, is not going to stop other beastial men from raping and molesting children. If men can fix what is wrong with the Watchtower, then it is a mere human organization after all. Christ foretold that at some point we would experience an increasing of lawlessness that would cause the love of the greater number to cool off. It seems to me that that prophecy applies to the organization. Certainly child abuse is an extreme form of lawlessness. But, the solution is that Christ and his angels are charged with removing all things that cause stumbling and all persons doing lawlessness. That indicates that we need a super human solution to the evils afflicting us.
The other side of the coin is that the Watchtower has a lot to answer for, and the way child abuse has been handled is only a very small part of what ails the Watchtower Society. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I fully expect and anticipate Jehovah's judgment to lay the Watchtower low. I don't know exactly how that's going to happen, but I suspect that when once global warfare erupts, possibly as soon as the next few months judging by the increasing intensity of the beating of the war drums, that the financial system will crash, which will make it virtually immpossible for the Watchtower to carry on its large scale printing operations. Then each Witness will have to come to terms with the real issue, and not the phony ones presented before us by the Devil. The real issue will be whether we have faith in Jehovah God even when everything seems to be going wrong, when what we have been taught about the future appears to be all wrong. That's when we will have to step up and provide an answer to Christ's somewhat disturbing question that he posed, saying: "When the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?" I don't think the Watchtower is going to be there to offer much encouragment to the faithful to help them through, and I am sure Bill Bowen won't be anywhere to be found when Jehovah drops the hammer. / You Know
.
reminiscent of the 29 crash when broken gamblers lept from window ledges, the onion satire has projected an hilarious modern day version.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3828/lou_dobbs_hosts_moneyline.html
Reminiscent of the 29 crash when broken gamblers lept from window ledges, the Onion satire has projected an hilarious modern day version. / You Know
http://www.theonion.com/onion3828/lou_dobbs_hosts_moneyline.html
